Transcriber believed to be Mrs. Mary E. Mills, secretary and co-worker of Sowders,
“Profiles In Belief Note 23.”
WAS JESUS A JEW? EXPLAIN THE GODHEAD?
Question: Was not Jesus a Jew? Explain the Godhead?
Brother Ford: Jesus is not a Jew.
Brother Jack Frost: If Jesus was not a Jew, I can say I am not a white man.
Brother Ford: If you will just notice what I said, “He is not a Jew.” Which means He might have been, but is not now. He was born of a people called the ‘Jews’ but when He rose from the dead, He was a new creature and He is not a Jew. We know Him now as the resurrected Christ.
Brother Pennock: While we recognize He was a Jew, He was not a Jew in the full sense of the word, for He was a dual man.
Brother Sowders: You will have to take both sides, then and now!
Brother Pennock: He called Himself the Son of David. He called Himself the Son of God, and He called himself the Son of Man. That was before He was crucified or slain and resurrected. Mary was a Jew and for that cause He was a Jew. God was his Father. Therefore, He was half God and half man, half Jew and half God and yet was a literal descendant from Adam. Well, am I right or wrong? Yet He was a Jew. The first man Adam was of the earth, earthly, the second man Adam was the Lord from Heaven. We are both a Son of God and a son of Adam, when we receive the Holy Ghost. We buried Adam—he had to die because we never could have got the Holy Ghost until we die. But we didn’t understand the Word of God to stay that way.
Jesus Christ wasn’t any different from us after receiving the Holy Ghost—the only difference was, He never followed the nature of Adam—never yielded to it a single time.
A Brother: Said, “He read of an article that said, not a drop of blood came from the mother.”
Brother Cottnem: I want to repudiate what he quoted of a man, for in a child born of a woman, not a drop of blood is from the father, but all from the mother. In court, medical science won’t receive who the father is of a child by the blood; they can only tell who the mother is in that way. I would also like to add that the life we have when we receive the Holy Ghost is not in the natural blood. We receive Christ in us and lose none of our blood it still flows through us. The Holy Ghost had an operation with Mary that caused Christ to be conceived and brought forth. It was God, operating by the Holy Ghost that overshadowed her. When Jesus received life, he received it by the corpuscles in the plasma. Yet we get the life through that same overshadowing of the Holy Ghost. When Abel’s blood cried out, that was not his natural blood, but his life cried out. If a man’s heart stops, his body is still full of blood, but he is a dead man. When we speak about life, we are speaking about the blood plasma.
Brother Patton: The scripture says, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood. That is why a man can be dead and have blood but not life.
Brother Ford: Where does the existence of the Son begin? Did Mary produce the very beginning? Was His beginning there?
(Note HEB: Throughout the narrative [the Brother] is a Jesus Only or Oneness Pentecostal)
A Brother: In the beginning He was there in the power of His spirit, to create and give life.
Brother Ford: What did He look like?
The Brother: He is past my imagination and I believe is past most of us.
Brother Ford: Since God made man in His own image, what would His Son look like?
The Brother: I say Christ will have hair like wool. God is greater than our imaginations.
Brother Ford: What was He like back there?
The Brother: He looked just like a lamb slain in the form of a man. He was slain before the world began.
Brother Ford: Now He was back there as a lamb slain. What kind of a body did He have?
The Brother: He had a body prepared that was to be slain on the cross.
Brother Ford: What did He look like though?
The Brother: His Father looked like Him.
Brother Ford: Were they, both back there?
The Brother: They were both, back there. Amen. He was in His Father. Therefore, the image of God to me is the image of truth and righteousness and peace and joy. The likeness of God to me is life, overcoming death.
Brother Ford: He said, “A body you have prepared me.” That body is the body that Mary produced.
The Brother: Jesus said, “I am the Life.”
Brother Ford: That blood that was in His body didn’t come from back yonder.
The Brother: Then if we say this body of His, was the body of a Jew, then truly this Savior was a Jew.
Brother Ford: That sacrifice is what you are trying to tell me was God.
The Brother: It says the ‘Word of God.’ Now if the Word was God, then you say the spirit, which entered Mary, was God, and if this spirit grew in Mary as a natural man. It says, “And the word was made flesh,”—so then God, the sacrifice in flesh—God our redeemer did hang on the cross, died was buried and rose and went to heaven.
Brother Ford: What became of the son of Adam?
The Brother: God is the Son brother. The Son of God dwelt in this man Christ.
Brother Ford: That isn’t reasonable.
The Brother: Mary was only a field that God could plant His seed in and when this field produced the fruit of the womb, God came in the earth.
Brother Ford: Where did the Son, go to?
The Brother: If you want a natural man, He went back to heaven. If I do away with God, He was without shape, and without form. This is the first time I have been in a meeting like this and it sort of takes a little pep out of you. I will never see a Son and I will never see a God unless I see ‘ONE’ Jesus. In the beginning and in the ending, He will be ‘ONE’. And you and I will be one if we will ever be in it. I don’t know how to fix it right now and I will leave it to you gentlemen.
Brother Jack Frost: That had my head going around like a whirligig. I would like to know whom you are talking of when you confuse Christ and God, and God and Christ and Jesus, that is a whirligig. Isaiah said, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.” (Is. 9:6) When Jesus died there on the cross, it was a separation of the Christ from Jesus. That is why Jesus cried, “My God, my God why have you forsaken me?” Jesus is the visible man. Christ is the God Man. He was with God in the beginning and shall be with God in the ending. That is Christ. Christ lives forevermore.
Brother Ford: Did Christ die?
Brother Frost: No—Jesus did. In the days that Jesus was born, there were those who knew Jesus, but they did not know Christ. There are people here today who will say, “I saw Jack Frost,” in one sense it is true, in another sense, it is not true. There is only one that you can see. Whenever you see Jack Frost, the real man it will be over there in glory. I have a heavenly Father, the same who became my earthly Brother. So for my sake, from now on, if you are speaking of Jesus, speak of Jesus and if you are speaking of Christ, say, Christ.
Another Brother: What is the life of God?
Brother Frost: What is my physical life? Whatever my physical life is to my body, that is what the life of God is to my soul. If God should ever die, I shall die. As long as Christ lives I live, for I live in Him and He in me.
Brother B. Pennock: Did I understand you to say, “Christ was after His death burial and resurrection?” In the 9th Chapter of Acts, 9:5 “Who are you Lord?” And the Lord said, “I am Jesus whom you persecute, it is hard for you to kick against the pricks.” Did Jesus have a soul?
Brother Frost: Well, he had—if we call the physical life the soul. He did.
Brother B. Pennock: Paul said, “There is one God and one mediator. The word Christ means the anointed one, or the anointed Jesus. (He. 2:17) what about that? “Wherefore in all things, it behooved him to be made like unto His brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.” What about this verse?
Brother Frost: That is when He became a Hebrew.
Brother B. Pinnock: There are spirit, soul, and body, and all the way through it talks about Jesus being the second Adam. I don’t quite understand what you mean by Christ.
Brother Frost: In other words, you don’t separate the Son of Mary and the Son of God. What did Isaiah mean when he said, “Unto us a Son is born?
Brother B. Pinnock: What did Mary give unto Him?
Brother Frost: Physical life.
Brother B. Pinnock: I believe to get at this question, you will have to define what the spirit is, what the soul is, and what the body is.
Brother Frost: I prefer to say that the spirit of man is the life of a man. But when their souls are regenerated, it is the spiritual part that is going to live with God when this body has gone to the dust.
Brother B. Pinnock: Isaiah said, “He was to give a soul for an offering for sin.
Brother Frost: His soul went into the depths of sorrow and suffering of humanity and reproach.
Brother B. Pinnock: It said, “His soul died.” So take me, I am a man, I was born of the earth, earthly and then there was a second birth took place. I have got a spirit, soul, and body. Three distinct things, yet I am but one man.
Brother Frost: As I see it brethren, when this sanctification takes place, it isn’t only in this spiritual man, but in the mind. It takes a lot of spiritual devotion. The desire for instance, it says, “If a man be in Christ, old things pass away.”
Brother B. Pinnock: What was that which Christ gave up? Where did that life go?
Brother Frost: His body was just taken down and put in a tomb and then the Christ went to preach to spirits in prison.
Brother Wampshire: Somebody, tell me about the scripture, “Christ died for the ungodly.”
Brother Frost: That wasn’t natural. That was spiritual. I want you to get this, brethren the physical death of Jesus would never save anyone. Christ’s death did.
Brother B. Pinnock: He poured out His soul unto death. Christ died in the garden. Then when He went to the cross, the Roman soldiers drove the nails in His hands and it made the separation. Christ couldn’t die the death that Jesus died. It takes a spiritual person to die a spiritual death and it takes a natural person to die a natural death.
Brother Ford: This is a place that we can actually learn. It is a place for us to actually find out about a thing and be correct about it. Now, here are some scriptures that must not be overlooked. Ro. 5:6-8 “For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die, yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (Ro. 6:8) “Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him.” It was Christ that arose.
Brother Sowders: Now we haven’t gotten anywhere. Let somebody speak to the point and don’t run around in the Bible.
A Brother: Asked if we believed that Jesus was coming back in the body that He resurrected with. Brother Ford told of Jesus speaking to Thomas.
Brother Ford: After instructing them forty days and nights He went out to Bethany and blessed them and departed from them and a cloud received Him and two men stood and asked, “You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.
A Brother: Did He have a body to leave here to execute His will?
Brother Ford: Why certainly, every-one of them thought He would come back.
The Brother: Why did John say, “You that have seen me, have seen the Father.”
Brother Ford: Why certainly, He that has seen Jesus can see God. We are not looking for a Jew to come back, but that crucified Christ. He is coming back to be with us, not in us. We have got the spirit of God in us.
The Brother: What is God?
Brother Ford: Well God is a spirit.
The Brother: He is a big spirit then isn’t he?
Brother Ford: Yes He is!
Another Brother: We have all received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, did Paul the Apostle receive the Holy Ghost and the rest of the brethren?
The Brother: Yes!
The Other Brother: What future are you looking to? What is going to happen out in the future?
The Brother: If I come to the full knowledge I will separate myself from this body before I die.
The Other Brother: Did you know that God is coming back?
Brother Sowders: Now brethren, I believe we could make this more profitable. We have talked about enough on heavens and so forth. (A Brother had talked quite sometime on several things using much scripture). The question is—Was Jesus a Jew?
The Brother: I wanted to ask another question about receiving God in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Speaking about third heaven--.
Brother Sowders: Just where do you say, third heaven is?
The Brother: You will find it about two-thirds the way up.
Brother Sowders: I would hate to think it is such a mystery.
The Brother: He spoke of seven heavens and spoke of his soul.
Brother Sowders: When did you get your soul?
The Brother: It grew up from conception.
Brother Sowders: If your soul came from man, that soul was in your body when you were born.
The Brother: All souls are God’s.
Brother Sowders: Where did the 70 souls spoken of in Ex. 1:5, -- where did they come from? “And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls, for Joseph was in Egypt already.”
Jesus was never baptized of the Holy Ghost for He was already begotten of God and born of the Spirit of God at birth. Since He was begotten of God, He was the promised Messiah. When we receive the Holy Ghost, we receive the promise of the Father.
The Brother: May I ask the question, If Jesus was a Jew, then He had to be born again.
Brother Sowders: He wasn’t God in the flesh. The word became flesh and dwelt among men. That which came from the seed of God is all, the God He has. He was a Jew in this sense. The Word of God spoken by the angel and that mother, Mary, clothed that seed and that word, with a body. The fleshly body came from Mary, but the very seed of that body came from God. Since Mary was a Jew, He had to be a Jew in the same sense the flesh was Jesus flesh. Ro. 8:3 “God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.” If that was not Jew’s flesh, sin was never condemned in the flesh. For the flesh that He had, where did He get it?
The Brother: Our, question is, “Was Jesus a Jew?” Now if Jesus was born in the likeness of sinful flesh, then all flesh must be born again.
Brother Sowders: Well, it was like sinful flesh.
The Brother: Yet I contend it was like sinful flesh, but was not, but was holy flesh. His soul is not to be left in hell.
Brother Sowders: Well, where was that hell brother?
The Brother: In the grave.
Brother Sowders: The grave isn’t hell. The definition of hell – is torment.
The Brother: Then we will leave [the subject of] hell—I am unlearned on that. We will leave that [subject] we will go to corruption. He saw no corruption.
Brother Sowders: Why did He not, brother?
The Brother: Because He was holy flesh.
Brother Sowders: No, no brother, but because He resurrected before His flesh corrupted.
No one else called Jesus the Word of God but John. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1. The interpretation is, -- In the beginning was Christ and Christ was with God, and Christ was God. Col. 1:16 “For by Him were all things created, that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created by Him, for Him.” Then again, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Not God, but the Word that was spoken by the angel to Mary, became flesh. Conception was made and the woman clothed that seed, and it is the flesh of that very woman because He had no where else to clothe that seed from.
The Brother: Well, then if that flesh was Mary’s flesh, it was condemned to death!
THAT FLESH WAS CONDEMNED—HAD TO GOT TO THE CROSS
Brother Sowders: You are right brother. That is why He had to go to the cross. He condemned sin in the flesh, to prove to every man thereafter that the plan of salvation was sufficient. Therefore, I am glad that I know this, that the sacrifice could not have been any other kind of flesh outside of Jew’s flesh, because that was God’s people. He had to have the flesh of Jews. Had to have their nature—had to live where that flesh lived to prove to them it could be done.
The trouble is, men have tried to make Jesus Christ greater than He really was. He could not have been a mediator if He was otherwise, because He had flesh like we have and was tried day and night for 33 ˝ years and now can be our mediator and intercessor. And when He comes back, brother, He will come back with everything a man had in the sense of organs in His body, but His flesh and bones will be incorruptible. When He comes back—that is Jesus they will say, “Who made these wounds in thy hands.” And He will say, “These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends.”
A NEW HOUSE FOR ALL OVERCOMERS BEFORE RAPTURE
Jesus Christ is one individual man, but there is a life that comes from God through Him down here to a ministry and to the church. We too, have a promise of a new house. We are going to move into our angel. The soul will never move into an angel unless we are pure, as He is pure. Therefore, if Paul groaned that he might put off this old house and put on that house from above—and that is our angel, everyone of us, ought to be working for that angel which is from above and live there throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. I think that is a precious promise.
Mt 18:6 “But whosoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Mt 18:10 “Take heed that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.” Those little ones have angels—a great ‘big’ fellow can’t get into an angel. These little ones have angels. And, when we move into an angel, we can look into the face of God and see Him as He is. “Now beloved, we are the sons of God, “—not the sons of Christ, “For we know when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see Him as He is. When I move into that house, it will not have natural windows to see through. “Everyone that has this hope in Him, purifies himself even as He is pure.” (1 Jn. 3:2)
GOD IS A SPIRIT---NOT SPIRIT
God, is a spirit, not God is spirit. But God is a Spirit and they that worship God must worship him in spirit. But so many people worship him in a spirit. But it says, “Worship him in spirit and in truth.” And it causes us to “keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace till we all come into the unity of the faith.”
Jesus Christ is not a spirit, but He is an angel that has flesh and bones just as all angels consist of. In heaven, there are spirits and there are angels. A spirit can not be felt, nor can touch you. But an angel can be felt. An angel can lay a hand on you. There is a difference between God and Christ. They are two individual persons. Therefore, since Jesus Christ as I said, Jesus Christ was a Jew, He is not a Jew any more. He proved that He could live all His life without committing sin! And He offered up that body—that sinful flesh. And there was one time red blood flowing through His veins, but when He resurrected there was white blood in Him and now His blood cleanses us from all sin. However, the covenant is sealed with the blood of Christ because the red blood was shed. Many things can be done through the white blood. That white blood flows through us when we receive the Holy Ghost. “Except you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” When I drink the blood of Christ, it is that white blood. When I eat of His flesh, it is of His Word. And the true worshippers worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Therefore, I am glad that I never thought so much about the divinity of Jesus and it was easy for God to make me to understand because I didn’t put Him up as some great mighty divine spirit being. No sir! He came in another way. He became in the likeness of man!
The Brother: You say there are two persons, Jesus and God?
Brother Sowders: “The counsel of peace shall be between them both.” (Zech. 6:13) There it is pictured in the mercy seat. (On the chart) “Even he shall build the temple of the Lord: and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”
The Brother: I always thought that meant between the people and God himself.
Brother Sowders: Oh no!
The Brother: Col. 2:9 “For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”
Brother Sowders: Here is the way it is. In Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When I am baptized into Christ, I am in the Godhead bodily. There is no use to go out there and try to find something more, for it is in the fullness.
The Brother: I believe what you said, but I can’t see two in the Godhead.
Brother Sowders: Well Paul said, “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.” (Heb. 1:1) Jesus made the world, who, is the express image of His person. And if He is not in His image, there isn’t anything to make other things by. God said in the beginning, “Let us make man in our own image.”
The Brother: Christ must have been there then.
Brother Sowders: He was. He was the Archangel in the determinate counsel. There was a counsel sitting in heaven, and there in that counsel with thousands of angels, Jesus was there. Referring to this it was asked of Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare if you have understanding? Who has laid the measures thereof, if you know? Or who has stretched the line upon it? Where upon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy! (Job 38:4-7) That was before God ever created a man.
In the beginning, that is the beginning of creation, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” It took a while to do that. When he got through with that great first creation, He created Christ. He created him first. Rev. 3:14 “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: These things, says the A-men, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” He says He was the first creation of God. And when once God created Christ, He sat down and let Christ create everything that was created. Jesus Christ is the only one that God directly created, but everything since was created indirectly by God. No one could say but Jesus, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with your own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (Jn. 17:5) When He began to create, “Let there be light.” That was Jesus that did that. Light began to come forth, the seed was sown and it began to germinate and He then saw after the light was there, He saw nothing but water, and the Lord said, “Let the waters be divided from the waters, and the blue you see up there is the waters. He called that space between the firmament and that is heaven.
The first thing you know, He had vegetation and He created animals to eat that all up and then the animals were fighting and God created a man to take care of that and then God gave man a woman and that gave him more trouble than he ever had.
The first dominion was given to Adam but the last dominion was given to Christ. Therefore, we will have a New World to go into some day, and there will be no sin, no death, no heartaches, and no tears. All former things will be forgotten and all things will become new.
Therefore, Christ and the great angelic hosts are there today. And when God wants to send an angel to a certain place, He just think and it is done. I hear Jesus say, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.” (Heb. 2:12) Therefore, the reason He can’t come now with His heavenly choir, and He must have a dandy. He is going to bring them here some day when we become more one and unified in Him, then He will come.
Brother James: Because they are one.
TO MAKE US ONE
Brother Sowders: That is the great purpose in our coming together, uniting together in one truth—the Word of God. Purifying our selves by bearing with each other, loving and caring for this one and that one. That is why you see so much love manifested here because we desire to be like Jesus Christ. People have made remarks about bearing with this one and bearing with that one. You had better be careful what you say, because you may fall in the same condemnation and you will want somebody to bear with you.
JESUS IS THE NAME OF THE FAMILY
Paul said, “I bow my knee unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.” (Eph. 3:14-15) Jesus is the name of the whole thing. When we look above our heads, all we can see is Jesus. Insomuch that if I am willing to work to save people, God will send an angel to save me.
There is a great work to be accomplished between now and the end. Heaven is busier now than in years. I tell you there is some important work, taking place now. God is going to set things in order. He is setting a dark power out there and is creating a power of light, also while He is doing that. While He is doing that many angels are out there busy and they are working here. God has thousands and thousands of evil spirits and they will speak the very thing that God wants them to speak through men. Then you tell me heaven is sitting down today and not moving? Heaven has been busy ever since we have been on this Campground. Heaven has been concerned about this thing. God lets a slump come sometimes just to let people stumble and fall.
I would rather be here in the last three of four days of the camp meeting than in the first three or four. We have better things on the last day than the first. God blesses those that hang around and hang around and hang around. Some might say, “Oh, I am going, they aren’t doing anything.” “Say, when we aren’t doing anything, that’s when God and the angels aren’t doing anything.”
RESTORING THE TRUTH OF GOD
Oh brethren, how will it be when you move into them? I wonder Brother Ray which one you are going to move into? My God Brother Tommy, I wonder which of you are going to enter into? You are a little man. I wonder if they have a small one for you? I don’t believe there will be any certain sizes to fit us. But they have flesh and bones. I have been sick and the saints come to my room and say, “You are to sick,” and I said, “I will die before I will take a drop of medicine.” I was mad at myself; and an angel touched me on my cheek and I came out of that bed in a split second and I had one leg in my trousers and the power of God spinning me around so I couldn’t get my leg in the other one.
But, when we began to consider God brethren, we have labored in this doctrine for about 15 years. Being willing to take, a middle ground, God supplied our need to make plain things of this nature. If we had not found out what God was, Jesus and Holy Ghost, we wouldn’t have anything. You can not build unless you have a foundation. (Prov. 2:1) “Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn out her seven pillars.” (2:4) “Whosoever is simple, let him turn in here, as for him that wants understanding, she says to him, Come eat of my bread, and drink of the wine, which I have mingled. Forsake the foolish, and live, and go in the way of understanding.”
That was fulfilled in Jesus Christ’s ministry… Therefore, Jesus in His wisdom built a church that no man with all his ability could build. “Wisdom has built her house.” If we don’t build according to that pattern, it is because we don’t have the vision that He had. We can’t go ahead hurry up and do it here—to build that, we have got to have the same foundation that Christ laid. We have got to dig down in the rubbish as Nehemiah dug down in the rubbish. The rubbish that we have had to dig through is the tradition of man. Since there are seven pillars, we had to have God and Christ.
Poor Brother Reva laying back in the cemetery now, stood on the floor many a day and had many men to come from great cities and men of note and had much natural intelligence coming to prove that Jesus was God. We never got angry with them. The very rankest sat upon the platform and I was bearing with all the people, for everybody must have a chance for their life. Insomuch—as you give the saints a chance for their life, God will give you a chance for your life. Therefore, we sat and bore with these dear brethren and would work, work, and work.
GOD GIVES AN ANSWER TO ALL
One rose up trying to prove that Jesus Christ didn’t have a pre-existence before the virgin birth. He was supposed to be a giant. He put his Bible down like that, and said, “Alright, if you say Jesus Christ had a pre-existence before the virgin birth, I will give you 300 years to tell me who his mother was.” Well, as our custom was let the question, be on the floor and you know how it is. We all tried it, and finally the Lord began to give us revelation on it. We said, “God created Adam out of the dirt. Could you tell me who Adam’s mother was? Mother earth! Of course that was where he came from. “Alright, the earth was Adam’s mother—who was Christ’s mother? Third Heaven! Angelic substance!” The fellow said, “Bless God, 300 years? About three minutes.”
We saw that there was a God, an individual—a spirit being. And there was Jesus, an angelic being, and they were the two pillars. There was God and Christ, Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Pastors, and Evangelists, the seven pillars. They can be found in this body of ministers but you don’t hear anybody up here telling what they are.
Therefore, we have dealt with these doctrines for many years and we worked and based our labor on 1 Co. 14:26 “How is it brethren? When you come together, every one of you have a psalm, have a doctrine, have a tongue, have a revelation, have an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. Let the prophets speak by two or three, and let the other judge. If anything is revealed to another that sits by let the first hold his peace. For you may all prophesy, one by one that all may learn, and may be comforted, and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.”
Brother Frost: I see an opportunity to learn, and when I don’t see that opportunity, I want to get out of the way.
(Further discussion ensued)
Brother Eaton (ONENESS): Is it possible for a man to believe in three or in one God and I heard you teach, this afternoon that there were just two persons in the Godhead. Is it possible for them, if they overcome everything but not believe or see the two persons, could they make the bride?
Brother Sowders: Yes, I believe he could, if he could qualify in the church before his death.
Brother Eaton (ONENESS): Say that one believes in three, the other believes in one, and they would both be overcomers, and yet a firm believer in their one and in their three, is it possible for those characters to be in the Bride of Christ?
Brother Sowders: Yes, I said they could, I believe it would be possible. Because they did not have the opportunity to come together and work this thing out, (the Godhead). But if he comes together and works this thing out and sees it, it is different. Some are not afforded the opportunity that others are. If I am not made perfect by coming together in the church where the spirits of just men are made perfect. By continually coming together and to perfect our spirits till every bit of carnality will be disposed of, and make us all spiritual. Then when a thing would be brought forth and they wouldn’t understand. I believe that would prevent him from seeing whether it be 1, 2, or 3. It would be his carnal nature. But “he that is spiritual judges all things.” Judges whether it be 3, 2, or 1. I believe that portion of the carnal nature, which would prevent a man from seeing the right way. It would prevent him from making the bride. Now I am talking about ministers, not about those out there. (Saints)
Brother Eaton (ONENESS): I am a firm believer in getting our hinder parts inward and our heads out. My life is an open book and I am doing my best to make myself eligible to face this oncoming catastrophe, but honestly and sincerely, from my heart, I can’t yet see two or three in 3rd Heaven. I am speaking that from the depths of an honest heart. Honestly, for that second party, or that third party, I have searched, but have not found Him. (After discussing the Godhead with another brother). How it has been said that I am not in the body of Christ because I believe there is only one. I truly want to be in the body.
Brother Sowders: Well, you are! You have been around here long enough it has rubbed off on you.
WHAT DOES THE GODHEAD BODILY MEAN?
6/27/47 Friday Morning.
A Brother: What does the Godhead Bodily, mean?
Brother Sowders: When you are in Christ, you don’t allow anyone to get you out of Him by organizing you into something else, for in Him is found all the fullness of the
The Brother: God was manifested in the flesh.
Brother Sowders: God was manifested in Jesus Christ. Therefore, “Great is the mystery of Godliness.” When God was the father of a son, in a fleshly body.
The Brother: Do you believe Jesus Christ was God’s flesh?
Brother Sowders: No. The flesh came from the mother, but the life of God in that flesh came from God because it was God’s word that conceived the body.
Brother Frost: It takes three personalities to address Him. The body of Christ was God’s medium through which God works. Jesus body—there was embodied there, all the power of God, all the power of Christ.
(Discussion continues between oneness brother and trinity brother)
(Discussion continues between Bro. Frost and the Long-haired brother)
(Discussion continues between oneness brother, Brother Frost, and Brother Pennock.)
Brother Ford: You seem to be confused about God coming into this world as Christ. You precious people use Is. 9:6 but you have eyes, so read down here to the 8th verse. “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace etc.” God sent his Son in this world and He was in the express image of His person. Just leave Him there and bring His Son down here.
The Brother: Take 1 Jn. 5:7 “And these three are one.” We know God is our Father, and the father of all the spirits. He is the father of your spirit and mine. The word in the beginning was God! The Father was God and the Word was God and to prove the Holy Ghost is God look at Ps. 96-97.
Brother Ford: Do you realize that what you are doing is so much like Greek? What are you trying to tell me? I know what it sounds like. Are you trying to tell me there is but one God or Three?
The Brother: One. That is all. Godliness is a mystery brother.
Brother Ford: Lets get the mystery. The Holy Ghost is saying to us today, “If you will hear his voice.” The spirit of God came into this world, to call our attention back to God.
Brother Ford: Proverbs 8 says He was by him, not in him. How could He be in him, when He was by him?
The Brother: Made no comment.
Brother Ford: Just as far back as you go, He was called the Word.
Brother Pennock: Yes in the beginning was the Word. Do you think it was a word that somebody carried on a piece of paper? If Jesus was the Word in the beginning with God, then no doubt the Word spoken created Him n the womb of Mary. Then it is reasonable to me to draw the conclusion that the word created Jesus in the beginning.
Brother B. Pennock: I used to build houses and I had to have a blue print. I don’t see how we can build the latter-rain house unless we have a blue print. We still have a God, He is full of wisdom and he gave them a pattern for the temple that was to be built in the days of Solomon. We have that pattern. Then we have Ro. 1:20 “For the invisible things of him are from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” No man ever saw God only through that power. There are two cherubim there on that chart. The pattern says there are two there.
(Another brother talked.)
Brother Pinnock: Seems to me that this cow has gone dry. When a cow goes dry, I always quit. When I got one milked I used to run in another cow put a little more feed there and milk another one. Maybe somebody else has got anther cow to be milked. What we have gotten has been good, but let’s get another cow.
Brother Sowders: (Asking the brother who introduced the subject, again if he had another question, since he was interested in it this morning.) If you have got another question come on with it. We would like to clear it up in this service, because we won’t have it in the afternoon service.
The Brother: Continued in discussion with Brother Sowders.
Brother Sowders: My spirit, when it touches the spirit of God—something happens. But I don’t touch God, but I touch that spirit that comes from God. God is in Heaven, but is so great that He fills all space.
WHY YOU CAN FEEL GOD ANYWHERE
There are things that used to bother me when I first started out. How that when riding on a fast train or under the water, how I could touch God. But God eventually revealed it to me that He was in Heaven, and His spirit—the life of God, filled all space. Did you ever go in a room and a person was asleep there? Don’t touch em, but just stand there, and all at once that person woke up. What moved that person? Your spirit reached out and touched that person. My God, if I have a spirit that can to that, what could God do? He is so great that His spirit reaches out and touches people. Therefore, God is an individual and the Holy Ghost is spirit and Jesus Christ is an angel.
The Brother: I believe God is a spirit and is centered in Christ.
Brother Sowders: You could say He was centered in Christ in a way, but not perfectly. He is to the extent that He planted the seed in Mary. Since God’s word was in Mary’s womb, it brought forth a child just like the person the seed came from. Every seed according to it’s kind. Therefore, the life of God was in Christ, because of the seed that brought forth Jesus Christ.
I like to look at an egg after a hen has set on it a few days. You see a speck and little veins of blood are reaching out taking in every part of the egg. The speck developed and became like the little rooster that produced that speck. The solar plexus right there is where I started. Right there is where it all starts. So this body formed around it until directly there were members all formed there. That is why that place is called the heart. (The center—seat of affections) That is where the seed starts. There is the root of my nervous system. Right there is the womb of my soul. Since the soul consists of five senses, my soul centers right there. Jesus Christ started that very way. The word was spoken in Mary’s womb, and Mary clothed that word, which produced the soul and the man, in the body. God was in Christ in that sense. But that God that was in the seed that brought Him forth—the man that was inside of the body was God. And now the man that is in us is Christ. Because it, came from God, through Christ into us. Paul said, “Is Christ in you the hope of glory.” It was God in Christ that kept his flesh under subjection. The reason He could say, “He that has seen me, has seen the Father”—not in person. But as John has said, “No man has seen God at any time.” And then again John said, “He that has seen me has see the Father”—manifested in him.”
The Brother: You limit God to a certain form.
Brother Sowders: Yes, to the extent that He doesn’t change his form. But He can take that spirit—that life of his, and mighty power and wisdom and make anything happen out here, wherever he might want it to happen; but that doesn’t change God’s form.
The Brother: “Hear O Israel, the Lord they God is one God.”
Brother Sowders: We are going to have to get the context. Read it all. You will find out that Israel was making themselves other god’s and worshiping idols. This fellow had a god here and that fellow had one there, but if you worship me, I am one God. That doesn’t mean there weren’t two, that there was not Jesus with him then. It wasn’t talking to us but the Jew’s back there. They were making images trying to do their best to make images according to what they thought God to be, and God told them not to do it.
The Brother: I can’t terminate spirit as a person.
Brother Sowders: A person is not spirit. A person is a spirit. God is a spirit being and there is no one that is greater. When Jesus was praying, He wasn’t praying to the spirit of God, but praying direct to God, his Father. God is (A) spirit. The (A) proves He is an individual. We’ve got to understand A spirit and spirits before we can understand what God is and what angels are. There are many spirits—righteous spirits and evil spirits and God created both to accomplish his purpose in the earth.
The Brother: Do you believe a spirit, or the spirit of God has created everything that we have.
Brother Sowders: The spirit of God has created—Yes. The spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep. The spirit of God, and all life emanates from God or comes from God, and if it weren’t for God, the earth wouldn’t bring forth what it does. Therefore, that comes from the spirit of God. In him, we move and live and have our being. Not in the individual God, but the spirit of God. Oxygen, men don’t understand it, but if fish could speak they would tell you what it is. And God has got a life that emanates from him, that causes everything to live here.
The Brother: No man has seen God at any time.
Brother Sowders: What is God the father—is that one spirit? What is the Holy Ghost? What is that?
The Brother: The comforter. The Holy Ghost is God the same as one spirit.
Brother Sowders: It doesn’t say so. He said, “I will pour out of my spirit upon all flesh.” Who pours that out?
The Brother: Jesus Christ pours it out.
Brother Sowders: No. God said, “I will pour out of my spirit upon all flesh. You have got to hunt for the fellow that does the pouring there.